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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.10 08:54:00 -
[1]
Eh ...
Before I retired from my job as a Sys Admin ... I had to work with and support all kinds of stuff. Main Frames ... Mini Computers , Micro's ... radios ... routers ... and lots of stuff over 20 years that I'm sure I've forgotten about. To me, they've all just been bits of technology.
I've done most of my work with DOS/Windows compatible systems because ... that was what most of the people at work used and it was my job to help them do it.
I thought several times about buying an Apple System. Each time it came down to price/performance. I could always get more bang for my buck buying a DOS/Windows system and just couldn't justify the extra price points for the Apple.
Now ... this was back when there were IBM's that cost as much as an Apple - but then you didn't have to buy an IBM to run the same software it would - thanks to Microsoft.
Microsoft - more than any other company - has created the environment we have today.
I can remember when just about everything was proprietary. 8" Single Sided, Single Density - was the ONLY common disk format in the CP/M world ... I actually had a program (which ironically ran on a Tandy Compatible OS named LDOS) which would translate one 5.25" disk format to another (including MSDOS) ... This is to say that - the different manufacturers computers couldn't even read each others disks.
Apple is the last surviving company from those bad old days of incompatibility and proprietary applications.
Now ... I still can't say that I would never buy an Apple product ... if I had a reason to - I would - just as with any other bit of technology. But it hasn't happened yet - and the reason was - they cost more than they were worth to me. If someone else wanted to pay that extra amount of money for their system - fine - it's their money they can use whatever they want. I don't care. Just don't tell me that Apples products don't break ... cause I've had to deal with that too ...
And their software hasn't always been "better" either. At one point in time ... you had to hold down the mouse button as you scrolled down through a drop down menu - or the menu would disappear ... Now that was ****ing stupid.
Mostly - what Apple has benefited from - is that they built the hardware - and they built the OS. With the same people building the basic software and hardware for the system - they would have a damn poor excuse for any problems it did have. With Microsoft - they build the OS - but thousands of other vendors build the hardware. So ... yes ... you're going to have more compatibility problems if you have thousands of more vendors ... but then there are advantages to having thousands of more vendors to choose from.
The publishing world has gradually had more and more choice in the systems they could use. Photoshop has run for years on Windows systems for one thing. But - I'd not be surprised to find that there are companies that are still wholly Mac. If it's been working for them for years and they don't want to go through a transition ... why should they?
Now ... another issue is snobbery. There aren't so much Mac Haters as Snob Haters. Any hate directed Apples way - it (and it's users) have brought on themselves. There are just some people who really enjoy feeling superior to other people - so they'll buy a Beamer - not because it's a better machine (which mostly they are) - but because they want to look down on all those people who bought Chevy's and Fords because ... a Beamer isn't that much better a machine for hauling children to day care or getting up before dawn and coming home from work after dark ...
Of course there're various forms of snobbery. There's the "I'm not a nerd so I bought the computer for the rest of us ... " and then there's the "I am the Ultimate Nerd. I use UNIX because I can reprogram the Operating System - myself!" ... which is why ... there is no such thing as "UNIX" ...
Thus giving us the ultimate Snobs OS - Mac OSX ...
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.10 13:59:00 -
[2]
@AlleyKat
Well ... it's like this ...
Your response was the typical, knee jerk, defensive Mac-ophile response - of an elitist prig.
Sorry dude - but that's exactly what it was. No - seriously - that is what it was ... not just me calling you names. That is what your post was. Reread it with that in mind and maybe you'll see how bad it is. *shrug*
No - I did not say I would buy a Mac if I had the money - (I did have the money) - I said I couldn't justify spending the money on a Mac when I got a better price/performance value out of a DOS/Windows system. That's NOT the same thing.
I also did say - that I would in the future possibly buy a Mac - if I had a reason to. BUT. I hadn't done so in the past because the extra cost just wasn't worth it to ME. That's not the same thing as not having the money. I do have the money. *I* just do not have a reason sufficient enough to buy something that over priced - for the performance I would get from it.
Now - see - I do not have a BMW ... but I do have a '69 Camaro and a '76 280Z. I like my cars and they give me the enjoyment of having a fast, sporty car. Yeah ... the beamer would probably be a better car ... but ... not better enough to justify me spending that kind of money on one. I've had a '69 Camaro since 1970. That one got wrecked and - I went out and bought another one. I like that that car.
I did also say that I didn't care if someone else wanted to buy a Mac.
But you are so sensitive to being a Mac user - that you - knee jerk reaction - react as if you had been attacked - when my post was not directed at YOU in particular (though this one is).
Unfortunately for the sake of good communications - these forums have a limited number of characters I can use. Thus - I couldn't put a qualifier in front of my comment on snobbery saying that not all Mac Users are snobs (though here - I do believe that you are).
I would have made a comment about your analogy to the Ritz and MacDonalds but there wasn't room for that. This would have been (as it is here) directed specifically at you. That comment would be that I've mostly found the pseudo-intellectuals I knew to be silly people who were all wrapped up in all the little books they read and the food and wine they consumed and in how this made them "better" than other people. Maybe if I had known some smarter intellectuals, I would have been more impressed but while I actually do know - a lot - of really smart people, none of them are really classic intellectuals, they're ... pretty much nerds like I am. The problem I have here isn't that you prefer to eat such extravagantly cooked food but that you care so much about it but ... that's OK ... if you want to spend your time even thinking such thoughts, while I find that a little silly myself, you're free to do whatever you want. However, the idea that eating at a fancy restaurant is somehow "better" than eating at McDonalds is - just stupid.
Now - do you see the distinction being made in the above paragraph?
It's OK for you to like it and spend YOUR money on it if that's what you want to do - it is NOT OK for you to put down something else based on what you like to do. Doing THAT is what makes YOU a snob.
I have eaten in fancy restaurants but I prefer a burger and a beer.
And OBTW, the analogy was BS.
Now - you'll also see - that as I said with Mac's (not Big Mac's) - I don't care what you do. It's just not what I would do. That isn't snobbery, nor envy (what you referred to as hypocritical reverse snobbery) - it is indifference.
Anyway - your post is the kind of elitist Mac Crap that alienates people. It's not the Macs (they're just machinery) - it's YOU.
Oh and I've known a number of rich people too and I don't really give a **** about that. The ones I knew - were rich because they were smart and, while they had the arrogance of a lot of smart people, they weren't impressed by money. Money is a tool - not something that makes you "better".
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.10 20:26:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: AlleyKat
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
response
My analogies are legendary - I'm hurt.
I do not use a Mac, I use an iPhone.
AK
The title of the thread was Apple Products ... and I know something about Mac's and Mac Users.
I know nothing about "i" products or their users so I'll not venture a comment there. Whether there is a correlation between the attitudes of some of the owners Apple Computer Products and the owners of other Apple products ... I don't know.
My reflections on your personality were drawn entirely from your posts however - and those remind me a great deal of some of the Mac owners I've known - so that would be one indication of a correlation.
I've got a digital phone I use to make outgoing calls while away from my land line - which is all I need.
*shrug*
As to my analogies ... eh ... I'm not objective enough to be able to grade them. But then that is the type of thing Intellectuals do and ... I swore off being an Intellectual (I was one once upon a time) ... long ... long ago. I found I preferred nerds and since war gaming already had me solidly in their ranks - I fit right in.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.10 23:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Vogue
Originally by: Miso Hawnee
Amiga > All
/thread
When I was a kid I used to drool at the Amiga A500 that cost ú399 in the late 80's. My parents got an Amiga A600 in 1992 for ú199. But the A600 was just a slimine A500. The UK Commodore MD called the A600 'complete and utter screw-up'. Last year I got an Amiga A1200 and pimped it with aacceleration card and a 4GB flash card - hard disk. Amiga's were based on the Motorola 68xxx series which were superior to Intel's x86. But the PC won out from office use and vast economies of scale. The original IBM PC was a naff design. And typical of a lot of computer company's that have died out such as Commodore, Digital, etc is that their product placement and evolution was off the mark. The Amiga 1200 was not a ground breaker like the A500 was in terms of CPU power and the emerging PC VGA graphics system was superior to the Amiga 1200 AGA graphics. I play the odd game on the A1200. I got Amiga Doom to work on it Tried Amiga Quake but my accelerator card only has 8MB and not the 16MB minimum for it.
...
Yeah, at one time I was very seriously considering buying an Amiga but because of work - I had to have that IBM emulator they were supposed to come up with ... and finally gave up waiting. It finally came out but by then I'd given up on them.
That was the problem with most other systems. Most people got introduced to computers through work and work fell into the IBM camp. They may not have used IBM's but they used IBM compatibles. That pretty much doomed all the other platforms to either death or niche status. Gradually, all the special things that made these other platforms ... special ... migrated to the clones and there really wasn't a need for people to use them.
The thing that most people just don't get who were in love with these systems - was that a single common OS that could be used by everybody - was what really counted. That was Gate's realization and the reason for his success. Most people only needed a few basic functions - and these worked fine on generic systems but the fact that everyone could use them - that you could just walk into a computer store and buy software off the shelf - and expect it to run right out of the box - counted for more than anything else.
Yeah ... the Amiga had a beautiful OS as I remember it ... but *sigh* ... so did my Lobo Max 80 - Z80B running LDOS ... and that didn't matter either.
I always thought that the biggest problem the Amiga had was Commodore. They just didn't know what to do with it.
One of the things that people forget about Mac's was that the only reason they survived - was because of Microsoft Word and the other MS products developed for them. If the Amiga had had Word (I don't think it did) ... maybe it would have survived but ... there really wasn't that much room for little niche computers and Apple pretty much took it all up, dooming the Amiga and Atari systems.
*shrug*
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.11 11:14:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Of course there're various forms of snobbery. There's the "I'm not a nerd so I bought the computer for the rest of us ... " and then there's the "I am the Ultimate Nerd. I use UNIX because I can reprogram the Operating System - myself!" ... which is why ... there is no such thing as "UNIX" ...
Thus giving us the ultimate Snobs OS - Mac OSX...
wat?
I happen to be proficient in several derivatives of UNIX.
Precisely. That is all there is - is ... derivatives of Unix. There is no such thing as "UNIX" - only Unix derivatives.
One of the great things about Unix ... if you're a Unix Systems Programmer - is that you can reprogram the operating system itself. One of the really horrible things about Unix - is that everybody and their brother has ... Thus there is no single Unix community with software that is compatible across all it's platforms. If there was ... then Unix would be a contender as a mass market OS ... but ... because the community is so fragmented and "compatibility" means that you can recompile the source code ... to get it to run on different versions of the OS ... it's just a mess for anyone who isn't a Unix Systems Programmer.
It's kind of like ... the Unix geeks created this wonderful programming environment that was so customizable by themselves - that ... they ruined it for anyone else.
*shrug*
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 22:38:00 -
[6]
@Erichk Knaar:
Linux just vastly increased the fragmentation. Everyone and their brother came out with a Linux offering.
Now - if you're a real Unix guy - that's not a problem for you. If you're setting up a server somewhere and want to use Linux for it - you know enough to deal with the apparent incompatibilities and the real ones.
But what I was talking about was a product for the average user - who pretty much knows how to turn the computer on. Those people are going to be completely thrown by all these Linux flavors. The very idea that they can have more than one shell ... is going to stop them cold. There's an Art Site that asks it's users What Is Your Favorite Shell - and 99% of them have no idea what they are being asked. A common reply is - Sea Shell.
If Unix had (which it NEVER did) one common user interface that EVERYONE used - then it might have been competing with Microsoft ... but since you don't even have common interfaces between the shells on any one particular version ... that's a battle Unix never even fought.
Now - again - don't get me wrong - if someone wants to learn Unix and become a Unix Programmer - then it's a great operating system for that purpose. I've used a bunch of different Unix derivatives and was impressed with all the things the OS could do. I personally think Unix is cool. Since I retired though ... I just don't do much any more but play computer games *shrug* so my Solaris and Linux installations have gone away with the hard drive space being used as on line back up space.
And - again - not everyone who uses Unix or a Mac is a snob - but come on - you've got to know just the kind of people I'm talking about - right? People for whom their allegiance to Apple is akin to a religion? If you're a Mac guy - you must know some people like that - don't you?
As to being the family tech guy - yeah - me too. One of my brothers had a Power Book for a long time but after he had kids ... when it was replaced ... it got replaced by a cheaper system. And - truth be told - they didn't have that much trouble with their Windows systems. Eventually they learned to use them and not call me.
As I said before - with the same company producing both the hardware and the operating system - Apples job of making a more stable system is vastly easier than Microsofts. There's essentially only so much that Microsoft can do but if you look at how well Windows does run - across all those different vendors hardware platforms - THAT - is impressive. I can remember dealing with multiple hardware platforms in a CP/M environment and you had to buy a different version of each program you used from the hardware vendor ... *sheesh* ... I don't even like to think about that ... I already mentioned how they couldn't even read each other's floppies ... What a pain in the ass ... Fortunately we had enough 8" disk drives that if we had to get some data from one vendors system to another we could always put it on a 8" SSSD floppy - and then use the 5.25" disks on the other system to copy it to a format that vendor's 5.25" drives could read ... So - I have experienced an atmosphere where what we take for granted today - didn't exist. Even the Early MSDOS Compatibles weren't IBM Compatibles ... but that didn't last long as all those companies that weren't IBM Compatible went out of business.
Now ... for our Unix systems at work ... at least by the time I started working with them - we could just transfer the data over the network - but those earlier 8 bit micros were using serial connections to the main frame and ... that ... well ... let's just say it could have worked had we not had internal policies I won't go into which prevented it from doing so - though the through put time was ...eh ... maybe 1200bps at the time ... on average.
So ... I've probably got an appreciation for a common platform that a lot of people who didn't have to deal with that wouldn't share. And believe me I am happy for them.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
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